041 - Massey University Vet Science student Q and A - recruitment and first job questions

This week Massey University Veterinary Science students asked Julie South questions relating to their first job interview & recruitment.

The questions asked were: 

Why should we go through a recruitment agency when we can get a job ourselves – doesn’t it just cost the clinic more to use an agency and won’t they then hold that against us?   Is it money they could have paid us instead?

Is it okay to ask about salary at the job interview?

I've heard from several vets over the course of my placements comment that they found an experienced vet at their first job to mentor them, and that they partially based their first job decision on that. 

How should I go about this? 

Is this a common thing new grad vets think about? 

Is it important or crucial to my development as a new grad? 

How do you balance finding a good first job with your partner's limited work locations?

How would you approach asking a clinic you've done placement at if a job might be available? (When they're not advertising a position currently) 

What things should I look out for when applying for jobs/employment contracts? 

Are there any hidden things that would be good to know? 

If something stated in your contract is broken by either party, does that void the contract and should a new one be written up? 

how to express your interest in a job vacancy while on placement!

 and when to ask about pay rate, i.e. in first interview? 

What are some ways I can ask my employer for a raise in salary? 

What are some ways that we as new grads can negotiate for a better starting salary during the job recruitment process?   

When you are looking for your first job, how do you figure out what you're worth? 

 And how do you ensure you end up in a job where they recognize your worth (financially and recognising your abilities)? 

If you have an offer early in 5th year for a job that looks like a sweet deal, could you hold onto that position while waiting to see if any better offers come up? 

If so, what is a good way to reply to the firsts original offer? 

I started sending my CVs to different clinics and then called you, but you told me you can’t help me – I’m on my own – why is that?

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Transcript

041 - Massey University Vet Science student Q and A - recruitment and first job questions 
 
 

[00:00:00] welcome to episode 41 of Paws, Claws and Wet Noses. The veterinary sector podcast dedicated to all creatures. Great and small. And the fantabulous professionals who look after them all, I'm your show host Julie south. And here we are episode 41. This week's episode is especially for Massey students, Masseyveterinary students and upcoming grads. 
 
 

[00:00:40] It's the first of two Q and a shows with questions that the students and the about to grad graduates have sent me in to answer.. The questions they've asked in today's show, uh, specifically around getting your first job and what to say [00:01:00] or not to say at job interview. And the next show, not next week, but the next show we'll answer all of their financial questions now because these questions or the questions that they asked were way above my pay grade and level of skill they're being answered by Janet Natta of Smart Money Advice. 
 
 

[00:01:22] Janet and I will be recording that episode in early September. It took a bit to get both of our diaries lined up. This series has been in the making since may. So it's a really good feeling to get it to air back in May Cheska Dowrick who's the 2021 president of the student veterinary business society or the SVBSat Massey University and a Masseyscience student herself asked on Facebook, whether there was anyone able to help her fellow [00:02:00] students. 
 
 

[00:02:00] Answer the financial questions. Well, one conversation led to another and led to another and here we are.  
 
 

[00:02:10] Bryan Gregor: All vet told my father when he was a student in Glasgow. He said, if you want to be a success in veterinary practice, just keep the bowels open and just arrested. God. Nutrition is not an opinion. It's a science. 
 
 

[00:02:24] They called me that weird herbal needle that, and I just remember thinking, well, I'm still going to do it. Cause I know it works. And I've got the research to back it from reminiscences of the real James Harriet son to you, Trisha. To acupuncture, the big podcast discusses current animal health issues from around the world. 
 
 

[00:02:43] I'm veterinarian, Brian Gregorfrom New Zealand, just search for the vetpodcast. Wherever you get your podcasts from 
 
 

[00:02:53] paws, claws and wet noses is sponsored by VetStaff.. If you've never heard of VetStaffit's New , [00:03:00] Zealand's only full service recruitment agency. 100% dedicated to the veterinary sector VetStaff has been around since 2015 and works nationwide from Cape Reinga to the bluff and everywhere in between as well as helping Kiwis VetStaff also helps overseas, qualified veterinarians find work and art here. And. Fit staff.co dot indeed. Questions. I'm going to answer now have been sent to me direct by Massey vet science students. They are all great questions and relevant. Not only to someone entering the permanent or full-time or part-time workforce for the first time, but anyone who's seeking, who's looking for a job. 
 
 

[00:03:49] Most of the students wanted to remain anonymous. So. I hope that you listen to or recognize your own question. First up [00:04:00] anonymous, number one. Why should we go through a recruitment agency when we can get a job ourselves? Doesn't it just cost the clinic more to use an agency and won't, they then hold that against us as that money they could have paid us and stuff. 
 
 

[00:04:20] Good question and or several questions because there are a few questions rolled into that one question. I'm going to break it down and answer the questions one by one. They're actually questions that Isabel and I answer often not quite daily, but multiple times each week. And yes, you can find your own. 
 
 

[00:04:42] Our question to you is how do you know that you're not leaving money on the table? And how do you know if the clinic will deliver on what it's promising? If you think that you've got what it takes to negotiate your own package, then absolutely go for it. Negotiation [00:05:00] involves psychology and backbone. 
 
 

[00:05:02] It's about knowing what to concede and whatnot. It's not as many people mistakenly believe about meeting in the middle. It's a skill you need to keep using, or you lose it. And Isabel and I are good negotiators because it's what we do every week. We negotiate. If you'd like to hone your negotiation skills, then check out episode number 22. 
 
 

[00:05:28] And that's where I talked about negotiating power tips and rules, and looked at the book by Chris false, never split the difference. I'll put the links onto the episode. Page of pores claws, wit noses dot. If. Next part of that question, doesn't it cost the clinic more to use a recruitment agency? Well, yes, there is a professional fee attached to a recruitment agency services. 
 
 

[00:05:57] However, our clients know that [00:06:00] when we present, when vet staff presents a candidate to them or a job seeker, they know that the fit is going to be right, because we know their clinic. They know also that would vet staff. They don't have to worry about doing the background, checks the reference, checking, organizing police checks, checking visas, residency, and all the other due diligence that goes. 
 
 

[00:06:24] And as part of recruitment, because we've done all of that for them. In most cases, most HR and practice managers have other tasks to do that only they can do them. And I can't. So they're appreciative that using us, lets them get on with doing the high level stuff that they're paid to do, which is what top level HR and practice managers includes strategy and implementation. 
 
 

[00:06:53] It's not usually recruitment. So there are we by using us. We're allowing them to get on [00:07:00] with doing their real job, their day job. And as for the question about, will you as a candidate, as a job seeker, miss out on some kind of sign on bonus by going through a recruiter. In short. Nope. You won't we've negotiated sign on bonuses. 
 
 

[00:07:19] We've negotiated more than sign-on bonuses. We've negotiated remuneration, re we've negotiated remuneration packages that job-seekers thought were pie in the sky dreams for them. It's like, you're never going to be able to get this Julie. And we did. It's really important that you don't allow yourself to be intimidated by FOMO fear of missing out because that's a psychological ploy. 
 
 

[00:07:48] So don't buy into it to look at that question overall. Yeah. The reason for using a recruitment agency is because we can negotiate seriously, a much better [00:08:00] remuneration package for you. Then you can negotiate yourself. We know how to negotiate and, and around different contracts, because it's what we do. 
 
 

[00:08:09] Your strong point, your skills and expertise are in treating and diagnosing sick animals, which I don't know how to do. Whereas Isabelle's and my strengths are in negotiation and getting the absolute best employment agreement and remuneration deal possible for you. Our job-seeking client. The flip side of that is that we get the absolute best possible employees for clinics. 
 
 

[00:08:37] Our clinic clients know that we send them good people. We have a reputation in the marketplace for doing that. Here at VetStaff . We don't just forward your CV onto the HR practice manager at a clinic. Now I know that there are some recruitment agencies that do do that. In fact, this all they do, they just flick on your CV, just like you can do it yourself, but we don't. 
 
 

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] Firstly, what we do is we meet with each job seeker. So that's you usually by zoom sometimes by WhatsApp, sometimes in person, depending on where you're located to find out what you're looking for. What's important to you in your next move in your next. We consider ourselves matchmakers, not CV flickers. 
 
 

[00:09:23] When we know what you're looking for, then we start going to our network. We knock on doors, doors that will open to us easily because the clinics know that we're sending them good people. And what we're doing as we are knocking and talking with clinics where we know the match between you and them would be a really, really good fit. 
 
 

[00:09:48] In addition, we know what clinics are, good employers, and sadly not all of them. We also coach a job seeking clients absolutely free of charge. [00:10:00] It doesn't cost you the job, seek anything to be interviewed, coached by us so that you present your absolute best self and are prepared for the interview questions. 
 
 

[00:10:10] You'll likely be honest. Question number two again from another Anon. Is it okay to ask about salary at the job? If you're a bit staff candidate, you'll be going into an interview knowing what the salary range is. And therefore you won't need to ask this question because we'll have answered it already for you. 
 
 

[00:10:38] However, if you're doing your own job searching, then our recommendation would be to ask it on the second interview. If you need it. If you don't know it already by then, most interviewers will let you know what the salary range for the position is to give you an idea. As a first grad, here we are in 2021, [00:11:00] you'll be looking to start on at least $65,000 and go up from there. 
 
 

[00:11:05] The going up from there might not necessarily being dollars per annum, but could, for example, be in different types of specials that say we would negotiate for you over and above your base salary. Most job interviews will consist of an, an initial introductory interview. Usually one-on-one with you and the HR manager or the practice manager or the lead fee. 
 
 

[00:11:31] If the fit is right between you both you'll then probably be invited back to spend a day with the team at the clinic to make sure that the fit is still right. You should get some one-on-one time with a hiring manager. And this is where if you need to that, you'll discuss something. Most people go to work because they need to earn a living that's expected. 
 
 

[00:11:55] However, over and above there, people want to work with people who are passionate [00:12:00] about what they do, not just solely focused on the dollars. If you ask straight up the first interview, you could create an impression that you didn't mean to question number three from anonymous. I've heard from several dates over the course of my placements comment, that they found an experience that at their first job to mentor them and that they partially based their first job decision on that. 
 
 

[00:12:28] How should I go about this? Is this a common thing? New group, new grad fit think about, is it important or crucial to my development as a new grad? My answer. Yes, absolutely. You do need a mentor. Everyone needs a mentor. I have a mentor when I'm working with new grids, helping them get their first job. My first question of a clinic is tell me about your mentoring program. 
 
 

[00:12:57] What does that look like? Have you got the [00:13:00] capacity to mentor a new group? If they haven't, then I won't be introducing a new or even a recent grad to this clinic because I don't want them to be broken in their first job. So if you're a DIY and doing it yourself, your own job search and, or you are using a CV flicking agency, which is not us. 
 
 

[00:13:24] And you're not using us either. Then you need to ask what their graduate development and or mentor programs look like, ask whether it's possible to speak with their new or their recent grants that have been through the program. Sadly, some clinics will talk the talk, but can't walk. It they'll talk up their grad development program, but that's the one there's they've still got on the drawing board. 
 
 

[00:13:49] They haven't actually implemented it. Or they did have a grad mentor, but then that's no longer with them. They've resigned and they haven't got the [00:14:00] capacity to make it possible. Again, you don't necessarily need to have a mentor at the same clinic, but in your first job, that's the best way to start because they'll understand the dynamics at the clinic and can help you navigate the dis the different personalities. 
 
 

[00:14:17] Is it a common thing for new grads to think about? Sadly, I don't think it is. I think it's becoming more common, but I don't think it's on every new grid's mind and high enough on their list of must haves in their first job. That one was about mentoring. So yes, you need a mentor. Next question. Another anonymous one. 
 
 

[00:14:41] What red flags should we be looking out for in our contracts? And what green flags would you go for? Do you have any negotiation techniques, advice to help us achieve these green flags? Okay. Let's look at the red contract, the red flags in contracts. [00:15:00] First, firstly, New Zealand, employment, law grants, all employees, the right to take reasonable time to consult with an independent person, someone that they trust to talk with them about a job before they sign an individual employment agreement or an IEP. 
 
 

[00:15:18] The law gives you reasonable time to consult with someone else, reasonable time. Isn't actually defined, but it means that you shouldn't feel pressured to sign an IAA presented to you. Neither should you dilly-dally around. If you're working with us, we'll take you through your IAA. That's your individual employment agreement, bringing your attention to the different clauses. 
 
 

[00:15:42] I don't consider myself independent because I'm the bridge between you and your new employer, and I'm being paid by your new employer. When it comes to employment contracts, I've been known to return them to the clinic to fix up because they're not current with New Zealand employment law. I [00:16:00] make sure that there are clauses and an IEA that protect both the employer and the employee. 
 
 

[00:16:06] Now, when it comes to red flags, you need to know your employment and privacy rights. There are some questions that it's illegal to ask at a job interview or when it comes to references. So make sure you know what these are, because there's quite a list. And to do that, check out episode 26, which is entitled questions you can and cannot ask your colleagues and or job seekers candidates. 
 
 

[00:16:30] I'll put the link up on the show notes of this page, of this episode, but it's episode 26 that you're looking for being asked the questions I just referred to could be a red flag. There are also some clauses to take note off in your individual employment contract. For example, are you being paid a salary, a fixed amount per annum, which includes on-call after hours in any emergency caller. 
 
 

[00:16:59] Are you [00:17:00] being separately recompensed for these events? What does that look like? It could be extra money or it could be time off in lieu. Does your pay include 3% QE saver or as can we save additional tow? If it includes KiwiSaver then your remuneration package ERs in real terms, 3% lower than what the quote is. 
 
 

[00:17:23] Restraint of trade. How severe is it? There's a misbelief that restraints of trade don't stand up in a court of law that actually incorrect. They can, however they need to be worded correctly. An employer cannot stop an employee from continuing to earn their living. Severely restrictive restraints of trade can be informed. 
 
 

[00:17:45] If it can be proven in the contract that the employee was being paid above market rates and recognition of a severe restraint of trade against them. When they lift, there are other more friendly [00:18:00] ways to bring about a restriction on resignation. For example, instead of a re a restraint of trade, you could have a non-compete clause. 
 
 

[00:18:08] That you won't work on any existing clients, animals at your new clinic. If they're close for a set period of time and that you won't solicit existing clients to become clients of your new implant. If you do sign a return, a restraint of trade thinking it won't stand up in law, in a court, then that's a bit naive. 
 
 

[00:18:31] Also, if things ever get to the point where they need to be argued in court, that's really sad if you've ever had to go to court to defend or plead a case, you'll know that it's a huge distraction at time sucky and it's stressful. It's far better to negotiate that clause right at the gate. There are two types of trial slash probation clauses, and you need to make sure that the right one [00:19:00] applies for your clinics situation. 
 
 

[00:19:02] Trial clauses are four clinics with 19 or fewer employees. Probation, clauses are for 20 or more employees. And both of these clauses must be discussed with you the new employee before you sign your I E a it's not okay for your employer to rely on you. The new employee that you read the clause without mentioning it to you first. 
 
 

[00:19:29] I wrote a blog article on this a few years ago. So I'll put the link of that on the show notes page as well for you to go back. So remember this is episode 41 that you're listening to right now. Next question from another non, how do you balance finding a good first job with your partners? Limited work locations? 
 
 

[00:19:52] How would you approach asking a clinic you've done placement at if a job might be available when they're not currently [00:20:00] advertising that position? Okay. Let's look at the first one. How do you balance finding a good job with your partners? Limited work locations. That's a tricky one. It deserves a really good answer. 
 
 

[00:20:11] And I'm not sure whether there is actually a good answer. I say that because I don't know your whole situation here. For example. Does this mean that you need to choose whether to be a city vet or a rural vet when you want to be the opposite and or you want to be a mixed and not limit your options, but your partner's location makes that impossible. 
 
 

[00:20:36] If it's just a matter of finding a clinic in a location that works for you both, then you can either start door knocking, which I don't recommend, or you come to visit staff so that we can help you find the right clinic and the right location. I'll talk about why I don't recommend it. Door knocking later. 
 
 

[00:20:54] I suggest that the two of you also sit down and look at their locations that would [00:21:00] work for both of them. Maybe one of you has to spend more time driving to, or from work then you'd really like, and talking of driving, driving, keep in mind that unless you're you, as the vet, as a veterinarian are in a location that has a dedicated after hours emergency clinics that run through the night, you won't be able to be too far away from the center of activity for your work. 
 
 

[00:21:27] Some clinics do actually have a limit on how far away you can live from the clinic clinics location for after hours on call and emergency work. Now, obviously you're not going to go straight into solo after hours or on-call. Solo by yourself. But you know, if you are planning to staying at their clinic, that's a consideration. 
 
 

[00:21:50] If your partner doesn't have an on-call or after hours aspect of their work, there may be it's they who has to spend a bit more [00:22:00] time traveling to, or from work each day to accommodate you as a veterinarian. Hope that's helped if it has an, I am more than happy to answer that question. One on one private. 
 
 

[00:22:14] How would you approach asking a clinic? Another question, how would you approach asking a clinic, give done placement at if a job might be available when they're not advertising and position currently, right before you approach a clinic, you need to do your homework about the clinic. First. You might enjoy your placement there, but are they able to meet all of your needs as a new grad, especially in the mentoring and the, the new grad support that you're going to need. 
 
 

[00:22:44] This year, we've helped several new grads who have come to us, asking for help to find their second job when they've only been in their first job, a few months clinics where they did placement, which they absolutely [00:23:00] enjoyed, but then turned out to be one big mess. Once they were employed there on a permanent basis. 
 
 

[00:23:07] So placement is completely different to working there permanently. I'm going to keep hopping back to this, but I say it's the most important thing for all grids is making sure the clinic has the capacity to mentor you. Because if they don't seriously, your life will be miserable. You'll feel like you've been thrown into the deep end and that no one cares you'll become one of those statistics. 
 
 

[00:23:31] One of those, one of those statistics that quits clinical practice, because it wasn't what you thought or dreamed it would be. So don't do that to yourself. You've spent all this money and the last five or so years getting to where you've got. You owe it to yourself to respect you. And your profession, but if you decide that you found the clinic of your dreams and ask, have a chat to the lead feet, to the practice manager, to the [00:24:00] HR manager, someone who'll know what's going on, let them know that you're interested, should a position ever become a vet. 
 
 

[00:24:07] Ask to be put on their list. Now most will tell you that they don't have a list. If that's the case, then tell them you want to be first on the new list. And that you'll start the list for them. I say this often, no one as a mind reader, if you don't tell them that you're keen to work there and they don't ask, neither of you will know. 
 
 

[00:24:31] Amy has asked, what things should I look out for when applying for jobs, employment contracts, are there any hidden things that would be good to know? And Amy I've answered some of this question already, but. About what to look out for when it comes to things as good to know my answer to that is to do your research about a clinic after all, any employer that knows what they're doing, we'll be checking you out [00:25:00] online and off. 
 
 

[00:25:01] So you do the same for the clinic. You want to know what the nurse to vet ratio is when they say they have, for example, four visits, are they all still employed? Or have they resigned? Unfortunately, a lot of clinics will try to seduce you seriously. They will. They'll tell you they have four vets, but what they won't tell you is that two or maybe more of those vets have resigned. 
 
 

[00:25:30] So the remaining that are stretched to the max, which will not only impact your caseload's it'll impact your ability to be, to be professionally mentored the way that you deserved. Same question with the nurses. Have any of them resigned or are they planning to what's their staff turnover levels? Like how often do people leave and why do they leave? 
 
 

[00:25:57] What are they like to work for? [00:26:00] Would they be happy? Was meeting the team with you, meeting the team and asking quiz. Google the clinic, do a deep dive. Find out as much as you can before you sign anything and dig beyond the first 10 results from Google. Dig a few pages deep. You might be surprised at what you find when you start. 
 
 

[00:26:21] And also check out episode 19 of pores clothes, wet noses, because that episode is geared or it's geared more towards the employers. If you actually reverse engineer it and switch it around, it also tells job seekers what they can do in a reverse engineering type of way to find out more about a claim. 
 
 

[00:26:43] Next question is from GS of something, stated in your contract as broken by either party. Does that void the contract and should a new one be written up? Geez, I'm not an employment lawyer, but I'd say the first thing to do is that you should [00:27:00] ask to talk to you, or you should talk to your employer under the heading. 
 
 

[00:27:04] Of good faith. My question to you is what's broken. Can it be fixed as it, one of those causes that Dr. Francesca brown referred to when she was a guest on pause, claws, wet noses, which is, is it a clause that everyone knows everyone breaks or ignores because it doesn't work. In other words, does that cause really need to be there. 
 
 

[00:27:27] So it's not so much it's broken. It's just different. My recommendation would be to sit down and have a chat with the HR manager or the, the practice manager or the principal or the lead vet, whoever you can and talk about it, there should be a clause or a jewel or an appendix as part of your IEA that outlines the procedure for resolving issues. 
 
 

[00:27:54] Check out what that clinic's procedure is. Yeah. And if that doesn't work, then maybe you [00:28:00] do need to consult with an employment lawyer. I know a few. So if that's you please feel free and this is for anybody. If you need an employment lawyer, get in touch with me. I can refer a few. So please feel free to get in touch and I can give you the details. 
 
 

[00:28:15] I'd say this to anyone, and it's far better to sit down and try to talk things out, then get all heavy handed by bringing in an employer, an employment lawyer, right from the get, go leave that until you have no option when it's a last resort. Because as soon as you a lawyer gets involved, people start getting on the defensive because they feel attacked. 
 
 

[00:28:39] And an and lawyers cost me. This is a question from Jenny and which I've answered for one of the anonymous questioners, how to express your interests and a job vacancy while on placement. And when to ask about pay, rate I a N the first interview again, do your due diligence [00:29:00] on your placement clinics while you're on placement. 
 
 

[00:29:02] You're in a bit of a honeymoon phase. Everyone's trying to impress everyone else to some degree or another. So make sure that you find out as much as you can about the clinic and as for pay rates, like I said earlier, you should already know about this before you go in for an interview. If you don't know, then, then my recommendation is to leave that until your second interview and or when you. 
 
 

[00:29:27] A work experience day there with the exception of locum assignments, I've never placed a candidate into a position without first doing a work experience, meet the team type day at the clinic. It's at those work experience that you find out whether the fit or you're getting an indication, whether the fit is going to be right. 
 
 

[00:29:50] Another anonymous question. What are some ways I can ask my employer for a raise in salary? Okay, this is something I recommend [00:30:00] that you plan and strategize about or over first things first though, just because your employment agreement has a pay review clause doesn't mean you'll automatically be given a pay review. 
 
 

[00:30:14] So don't expect one. And I know that sounds harsh, but there are some connects that really don't believe in pay payroll. You'll have more success of getting a pay rise. If you're able to prove that you're worth it to do that, you must first know where you're at with terms of your peers and market rates. 
 
 

[00:30:37] That means you need to do some research, then you need to demonstrate you're worthy of being paid more because you earn your case. As a rule of thumb clinics expect the visits to generate fees, at least three times the annual salary. That is an absolute minimum. If [00:31:00] that's all you're achieving, then you're barely paying your way. 
 
 

[00:31:03] Barely earning your keep. So tranq, what you're invoicing or billing keep track of that for a month or so preferably a couple of months because of seasonal and COVID induced variance. You're more likely to be taken seriously. If you're invoicing around four or four and a half times your annual salary, if you're not doing that, then I'd suggest you look at ways that you can earn that. 
 
 

[00:31:29] Do you need to speed up your consult times for instance? Do you need to shorten the time that you spend writing up your notes? Can you be more proactive in your treatment recommendations rather than leaving something for another vet to sort out at the animal's next appointment, book it in yourself, make the recommendation yourself. 
 
 

[00:31:50] Get seriously proactive because clinics love proactive visits and look at your charging's. Are you short changing your claim? [00:32:00] Are your consults taking 20 minutes, but you're only being booked out and charged for 15. If so, there's a 33% differential. The extra five minutes you may think of as only five minutes, but it's actually 33% of 15 minutes and takes fee generation down from four consults an hour to three consults. 
 
 

[00:32:26] Makes a difference. Are you charging for everything that you use or are you giving away freebies, for example, rip samples. Then when you've got your facts and figures, you can sit down and have a chat, present your case provided, you know, what you're worth on the open market and you know what your ROI is, your rate of return, your clinic is getting off you, then you can. 
 
 

[00:32:51] And if that doesn't work, come and see me. And I hope you find a clinic. That'll appreciate your width. Now, the anonymous one, [00:33:00] what are some ways that we, as new grads can negotiate for a better starting salary during the job recruitment process? Right. Anonymous with all due respect. If the clinic is offering you a fair and reasonable rate, then negotiating a better rate is going to be hard. 
 
 

[00:33:22] And as I said earlier, a new grid can expect to start on a base of about 65. Per annum, 65,000 per annum for rural, um, remote, rural production and, oh, that's 65. As for companion, for remote, rural production and large animal clinics. The rate would be about 70,000 as a base, as a grid. You need to appreciate that you don't start earning your Cape until you've been working for around two or three years, trying to negotiate an increase before that will be here. 
 
 

[00:33:56] Because as great as your skills are, you're still a [00:34:00] liability to a degree at the clinic only when you can work sole charge. And I mean, truly sole charge, not just lunchtimes when you don't need to have a senior vet within Kiwi in the clinic to fall back on only then are you in a position to start talking more? 
 
 

[00:34:17] New grads, even with the newest and greatest learnings, reduce the earnings of them and the mentor for the first, however many months or years that they're in a clinic, you've got all the theory, great theory, but now you need the experience to back it up. And it's that experience that costs the class. 
 
 

[00:34:37] Here is a, another anonymous question that I think I've already answered when you're looking for your first job, how do you figure out what you're worth and how do you ensure you end up in a job where they recognize your worth financially and recognizing your abilities? As I've said, a few times, you're worth about 65 to 75 as a new grad in your first [00:35:00] job, depending on your prior experience. 
 
 

[00:35:03] I appreciate that for some new grants, this might be your second career move and that you've got valuable prior work experience. That will be a financial benefit to your employer. Maybe you've been, self-employed doing something completely different to this science and you understand all the ins and outs of running a business. 
 
 

[00:35:24] Maybe you've got a marketing or sales experience that will make a financial contribution to your clinic. But for most new grads who have gone straight from high school to MSCI the going market rate for you as 65 to 75,000 pounds. And like I said before, if you want the best remuneration package for you, then come to vet staff because we can negotiate things that you can't, because we know strategies and tactics that you do. 
 
 

[00:35:52] Here's another anonymous question. If you have an offer early in the fifth year for a job that looks like a [00:36:00] sweet deal, could you hold onto that position while you're waiting to see if any better offers come up? If so, what is a good way to reply to the first original offer? Okay. This is a very dangerous game to play playing one clinic off against the. 
 
 

[00:36:19] The New Zealand vet sector is very small. Believe me, it doesn't take long for the word to get out about a vet who's playing the field. The last thing you want us to get a reputation, because if that happens to you, you'll end up working at a clinic that doesn't appreciate you, because those will be the only job offers that you. 
 
 

[00:36:40] I know of a couple of overseas qualified vets who have attempted to play off one clinic against another, or even more than more than two and word gets around. It's not the kind of word that you want associated or H do your name cause people talk. And this is another reason to use pit [00:37:00] staff. We can negotiate on your behalf, the best deal without it. 
 
 

[00:37:04] Compromising your repertoire. Just so you know, too, that as soon as you accept a job offer, as soon as you sign the independent employment agreement, you are fully bound by the terms written into that degree. It means if you say that, or if it says that you need to give 12 weeks resignation period or notice, and then you're, and you're bound by their restraint of trade, even if you never work a day there in your life, you are still bound. 
 
 

[00:37:37] The clinic has every right to ask you to work at your resignation period. Before you start at the second or the third. Under New Zealand employment law. This comes under the heading of intending to start work. So please don't go there, come to FitStar first and let us get the best deal for you. And here's the final question from [00:38:00] another Anon. 
 
 

[00:38:01] I started sending my CVS to different clinics and then called you, but you told me you can't help me. I'm on my own. Why? Okay. I don't think I would have said quite that more like I would have said it'd be hard for us to represent you at all clinics because the clinics where I was asked to come in part way through their relationship with you or words to that effect, here's what happens when you send out your CV to Orland, Sandra, and I know there are some fitness tutors who tell the students to do this as well under the heading of it's good practice. 
 
 

[00:38:35] I've yet to have a vet nurse call me, who's done this and has got lots of interview practice as a result. This is the life. According to Judy moment, the only practice you get is to send out plenty of emails. You may, and that's a big, may get an interview. If your email reaches the inbox at the right time of the right person who needs to see it. 
 
 

[00:38:57] But most of the time that won't. [00:39:00] So sending your email to every clinic in the area you want to work only ends up being demoralizing. And I'll take this opportunity to explain how recruitment agencies work, because it's a question we get asked often and now's as good a time as any to explain. 
 
 

[00:39:16] Recruitment agencies make their money by helping employers find employees. In other words, matchmaking for us a bit stuff and matchmaking, vets, and nurses to the dream, that to clinics. Most of us that's most recruitment agencies work on a success fee that is we only earn our keep and only get paid. When we successfully find the perfect candidate, vet, or nurse for. 
 
 

[00:39:42] Fit staff is new. Zealand's only recruitment agency that works only and exclusively in the veterinary sector. We don't place butchers bakers or candlestick makers. We don't find jobs for plumbers or lawyers or airline pilots. We only find jobs related to the veterinary sector, both clinical [00:40:00] and industry positions. 
 
 

[00:40:02] Fit staff's competitors that is other recruitment agencies are generalist agencies. Those who place anyone in any job and other veterinary sector agencies that are overseas based with no representation here in New Zealand, they work in Australia or Hong Kong, or, you know, they're based out of Australia, Hong Kong, the UK, Singapore, UK, Europe, and Ireland now because we live and work here ourselves. 
 
 

[00:40:29] Because we live and work here ourselves. We know New Zealand, like the back of our hands. We know which clinics are great employers and look after their staff and which ones not so much. Now, when job seekers start sending their CVS all over town, it means you become known to the clinic. It doesn't matter whether they reply to your email or not. 
 
 

[00:40:53] You're still in the system. When you earn their system and we, or any other recruitment [00:41:00] agency, it hasn't put you there. The clinics don't want to work with us because it means we're professionally involved and that comes with a fee if they can recruit without involving an agency. Yeah. What this means for you is that you two have to DIY your own job seeking, including your own negotiating and making sure you've got the absolute best offer possible. 
 
 

[00:41:24] The chances are, you don't know whether it's a good offer or not, because you don't know what the market is paying. You only know what your, what your peers are being offered, which may not be the best offer. Further, when you adopt the spray and pray method of job hunting, that is your spraying. You'll see the all around town and then praying that someone will call you back and offer you a job. 
 
 

[00:41:48] You don't even know whether the HR or the practice manager has even seen your seat. Keep in mind that some email service providers, for example, Gmail and [00:42:00] outlook, automatically disconnect attachments and unknown emails, which your address ERs and sends the email to spam or junk. It means that somebody isn't checking spam or junk, they're not going to see your email. 
 
 

[00:42:14] This doesn't happen with fit staff's emails. When we send an email, we know it ends up where it's meant to end up because we're talking with the clinic. Every week, pretty much. So when you use an agency, the agency has a vested interest in making sure that your CV is seen by the person who needs to see it. 
 
 

[00:42:35] The other thing is that some of the bigger groups use what's known as an ATS or an applicant tracking system. As a database management system, that's designed to pick up keywords from resumes and CV. If your CV doesn't have the predetermined keywords again, it won't get through. And these are bots that search CVS and resumes [00:43:00] through ATS applicant tracking systems. 
 
 

[00:43:03] And it means that if you don't have the predetermined keywords you won't get through, which means that you will miss out. And just so you know, there are some agencies who do use the spray and pray method as well. They'll take your CV and they'll send it to all the clinics and then pray that clinic gets in touch with you. 
 
 

[00:43:20] They won't follow up on your behalf. Now I want to share a couple of stories of a couple of vets who graduated this year. So that means that they're in their first jobs and both of these situations, the bits found their own jobs and they were clinics where they'd done placement with while they were studying, the placements were great. 
 
 

[00:43:42] They had a great time. So when the clinics offered them a job, they naturally Excel. But because they didn't really know anything about the clinic before they accepted, other than the courtship period of their placements, they had no idea what they were letting themselves in for none of [00:44:00] these visits lasted six months, nothing they'd been promised, eventuated the multiple vet clinic. 
 
 

[00:44:07] They thought they were going to turns out that the vets were all in the process of resigning and working out their resignation periods when the new grid stuff. The clinics were about to implode and they had no way. The high nurse to vet ratio. By the time the new grads had started, the ratio was one-to-one or even less because the clinic hadn't disclosed that the nurses were resigning and they hadn't found replacements for them either. 
 
 

[00:44:34] Oh. And that meant that they were promised. Yep. They were resigning to, because of the veterinary shortage, they didn't have anyone with the capacity and clinic to mentor them. So these fits these new grads were lift height. It's easy to think that you're asked all the right questions when you go for a job interview, but the power differential is so very real. 
 
 

[00:44:57] And unless you've got the personal [00:45:00] self-confidence to ask the tough questions and negotiate the tough numbers, the clinic has the power advantage. I'll tell you about another clinic and it's a reasonable sized owner operator mixed animal clinic. The principal came to us and a screaming panic, because he was about to lose two VIPs and needed a replacement ASAP. 
 
 

[00:45:21] It just so happened that we were working with a vet at the time who was ready to start work straight away. We negotiated the package for the vet ahead of the initial. Because I have one of those feelings I had, you know, there was a bit of an alarm bell ringing. I didn't know, something didn't quite feel right. 
 
 

[00:45:40] I wanted to make sure that the clinic owner wasn't going to muck us or the vet around. So I needed to make sure that everything was negotiated ahead of them. The VA went to the interview and both parties had it off the principal then came back to us after agreeing and writing to everything that we'd [00:46:00] discussed. 
 
 

[00:46:00] That the only way they could afford to hire this fit was if we would essentially work for nothing, he laid on the guilt and it was truly horrible. Went somewhere else, neither Isabel or I were comfortable with having an amazing professional Viet working for someone who went back on his word and change the rules mid game. 
 
 

[00:46:24] Now, if that was you and you'd been charmed, like outfit was, but you didn't have Isabel on me on your team, a dread to think what kind of arrangement you would have ended up. Isabella. And I bounced around all possible, really bad scenarios and some of them were really bad. So we are here to ensure that you don't get seduced. 
 
 

[00:46:47] Hopefully that's given you some background as to why the best time that we can help you is right at the beginning of your job. Before you've sent your CVS to anyone or had any discussions with any clinics. [00:47:00] When you appoint us as your agent, right? From the get go, we can get the absolute best deal for you. 
 
 

[00:47:06] Oh, and those new grads, the second jobs we negotiated for them were in the region of $20,000, better than they were getting in their first year. If you've still got questions that you'd like answered, please email me Julie, at fit to staff.co dot. Indeed. I'm only too happy to answer your questions. Or you can go to paws claws wit noses dot F M, and leave me a voicemail message there. 
 
 

[00:47:31] If you'd prefer, you can do your own recruitment, but remember you need to know what the real market rate is, and you need to be good on negotiate. Thank you for listening this far, if you haven't done so yet, please remember to click the follow button or ever you listened to your podcasts. So you don't miss out on any of your favorite shows it's free and all your future shows will be delivered straight [00:48:00] into your face. 
 
 

[00:48:02] Remember to tune in because in September, we'll have Janet Netta who will be answering the second batch of these students, these messy questions, and that'll be around financial planning and debt reduction. Now, I'm always interested to hear what you think. So please feel free to get in touch I'm up for feedback, positive and constructive. 
 
 

[00:48:26] If you've got ideas and, or you know, of someone who had make an entrusting guest, please let me know about them as well. take care and God bless paws claws and wet noses is sponsored by vet staff. If you've never heard of it, staff it's new, Zealand's only full service recruitment agency. 100% dedicated to the veterinary sector and Fitz staff has been around since 2015 and works nationwide from Kate Wrangler to the Bluffs. 
 
 

[00:48:59] And [00:49:00] everywhere in between as well as helping Kiwis fit staff. Also hubs overseas, qualified veterinarians find work and Arturo and New Zealand fit. staff.co dot. Indeed. .